On Heaven And Earth features thought-provoking conversations between Cardinal Bergoglio and Jewish rabbi Abraham Skorka on religious, social and ethical topics.

At this stage I am sure readers would appreciate reading the mind of Jorge Mario Bergoglio, as it emerges from the books El Jesuita and Il Cielo e la Terra. The following quotations do not need any comment, but may spark some personal reflection. They are an insight in the mind and heart of our Pope.

On his mother’s cooking

“After the fifth child my mother had a paralysis and she recovered only after some time. During this period, on my return from school, I used to find her sitting down pealing potatoes and all the ingredients. She used to instruct me how to cook them together. This is how I learned to cook.”

“When I was at the Collegio Maximo San Miguel, every Sunday I had to cook for all the students, as the cook was on leave.

“As bishop I always cooked for myself and friends.”

Will he do some cooking at the Vatican’s Casa Santa Marta?

On working and studying

“I attended an industrial institute specialised in nutrition chemistry. I used to enter the laboratory at 7am and leave at 1pm. I had one hour to eat and then I would rush to school till 8pm.

Today we have one sheep in the fold and have to go out to look for the 99

“This was very precious for my formation. I am thankful to my father who sent me to work. This work was one of the things I learned most in life, for in the laboratory I learned to distinguish between good and bad in every human activity.”

Sergio Rubin and Francesca Ambrogetti’s book El Jesuita , sub-titled Conversations with Cardinal Jeorges Bergoglio SJ.

On the operation in the right lung

“For three terrible days I had to fight between death and life. With a very high temperature I embraced my mother in despair and asked ‘Tell me what is going to happen to me’. She did not know what to answer, as the doctors were very bewildered. The pain was tremendous, until the doctors saved my life through the surgical removal of the top part of my right lung.

“Sister Dolores, the nun who had prepared me for my First Holy Communion, said something that impressed me deeply and gave me great serenity, when she told me: “You are following the example of Jesus”.

Perhaps this is why his favourite painting is not some baroque masterpiece where Jesus is depicted full of blood. No, it is the Jewish painter Marc Chagall’s The White Crucifixion.

“It is for me one of the most beautiful of Chagall’s paintings, which shows suffering and is rich with hope and serenity.”

On his entry in the Jesuit novitiate

“When I entered the Seminary my mother did not accompany me, she did not want to come. For years she refused to accept my decision. She never came to see me. When she finally accepted, she did so with certain reservation.”

The poster of Babette’s Feast (1987), Pope Francesco’s favourite film.

On going into the streets to meet people

“It is fundamental that we Catholics, priests and laity, go out to meet people. One day, a very wise priest told me that we face a situation totally opposed to the one in the parable of the Good Shepherd, who had 99 sheep in the fold and went out to look for the lost sheep.Today we have one sheep in the fold and we have to go out to look for the 99.

“I am sincerely convinced that at this moment, the fundamental choice of the Church is not to decrease or erase precepts to render things easier, but to go down in the streets to look for people, to get to know them by name.

“This is not only to announce the Gospel as is our mission, but because if the Church does not go out it will harm itself.”

Here, a journnalist, quite surprised, asked “What do you mean?”

“The Church should not be confined to administer parish work, closed in the community, with the risk that a closed person runs of becoming physically and mentally stagnant. If the Church is in a closed room it will become all humid and stuffy. It may become paranoic and autistic.

“It is obvious that if one goes out in the street he may have an accident, but I prefer a thousand times an accidental Church, than a sick Church. If a Church limits itself to administrative work, or to look after the small fold of sheep, in the long run this Church will become sick.

“The isolated pastor is not a pastor of sheep, but a parruchiere (hairdresser) of sheep, who passes his time combing his sheep, instead of going out to look for them.”

During his homily on Maunday Thursday Pope Francesco said to the clergy: “You must smell of sheep.”

On avoiding clericalism

“Often the clergy clericalise the laity, and on their part, the laity want to be clericalised. We should not forget that to meet people, baptism suffices.”

Here he gives the example of Japan, which was without priests for 200 years, but when missionaries arrived after this lapse of time, they found that the people were still practising their faith, because of the apostolate excercised by the laity.

On the example of Pope John XXIII

“When Pope John XXIII was patriarch in Venice he went out in the streets. Every morning at 11, he went down to San Marco square for what he called the rito dell’ombra (the rite of the shade), consisting of going under a tree or a tent of a bar for a bicchierino (small glass) of white wine, while listening and talking to the people...

“For me, this is a pastor, someone who goes down to the people.”

John XXIII continued doing very much the same as Pope, and it seems this is what Francesco wants to do.

On celibacy of the clergy

“Personally I continue to be in agreement with what Benedict XVI said, that celibacy should be kept. I am not at all sure that the abolition of celibacy would increase the number of vocations to fill the existing void.

“On the other hand, I once heard a priest say that the abolition of celibacy would not only allow him to have a wife, but also a suocera (mother-in-law)! He said this smiling, and added: ‘Joking apart, yes, it would also have many advantages.’

“Celibacy is a choice and commitment for life,just like living with a vow of poverty. There are many moments when it becomes difficult, for example if in a parish a priest befriends and falls in love with a woman. It happens. It is a Cross and a new way how to affirm one’s choice in front of God.

“Be careful, because there is need to distinguish between true love, or simple infatuation or mere sexual attraction. There are cases when a priest truly falls in love and then he has to reconsider his priesthood and life. “In this case he goes to his bishop and asks to leave the priesthood.

“I am the first to be very close to the priest who lives such a moment: I will not leave him alone, I will accompany him in his walk and in the reflection of his spiritual life. If he is sure of his decision I will help him find a job.What I will not allow is for him to live a double life.

“God’s mercy has room for all.”

A quick question and answer session

As from page 114 of El Jesuita, Sergio Rubin and Francesca Ambrogetti pose some snappy questions to get quick answers from Cardinal Bergoglio.

Incidentally, this question and answer session was the only time he was late for the meeting with the journalists. They had seen him crossing the square with a thermos flask and some brioches.

He subsequently apologised to the journalists, explaining that a farming family had come unannounced to see him from Chaco (a province in northeastern Argentina) and he could not avoid meeting them once they had come to see him from so far away.

Here are some of his replies to the short questions, which show his humanity:

“Yes I like being a priest very much.”

“My favourite place: Buenos Aires.”

“My best person? My nonna” (grandmother). As Pope, he has even quoted her.

“Yes, I read newspapers. I listen to radio for classical music.”

“I prefer the metro as it is faster, but I like to travel by bus to look out.”

“Yes, I had a girlfriend in the group and we used to go to dance.”

“I left her because of my vocation.”

“I used to collect stamps. Now I prefer to read and listen to music.”

“I adore the poems of (Friedrich) Hölderlin and the works of Italian literature. I read Promessi Sposi four times, and likewise the Divina Commedia.”

“I prefer mostly Beethoven as conducted by Wilhelm Furtwängler, who for me is the best director.”

“Oh yes, I very like much tango. It’s something inside me. As a youth I used to dance the tango, but I prefer the Milonga.”

“As regards films I like Italian neorealism. My parents were keen that my sisters and I should not miss one film of Anna Magnani or Aldo Fabrizio.”

“My favourite film is Babette’s Feast, which impressed me most.”

“As a youth I played basketball, but I very much enjoy watching football matches. My whole family, even my mother until 1946, went to see the San Lorenzo team play, which is the team of our hearts. My parents were from Almagro, the suburb where (under the Salesians) the team was born.”

“My biggest daily sacrifice is to keep awake and pray after midnight. I sleep for five hours, more or less. I go to bed early and wake without an alarm at 4am. After lunch I take a nap.”

‘My hope is in the human person’

The two books are centered on man and humanity. So I think a good conclusion is what Bergoglio said to the two journalists: “For me, my hope is in the human person, in all he has in his heart. I believe in man. I do not say he is good or bad, but I affirm that I believe in him, in his dignity and greatness.

“Life always poses us many moral questions, while we put in practice or not our principles, because at times we are run over by circumstances and we succumb to our weakness. Man falls, but then he emerges again.

“I think this is valid, in general, to human nature, to all people and all society.”

It is always the mind and the heart that speaks in Bergoglio, even now much more so that he is Papa Francesco.

Concluded.